The trubble [sic] is this. Many a graduate degree was attained and awarded on a dissertation that proves this or disproves that... and favorite topics in music are the popular Bach, Beethoven, and most popular Mozart. 

For years it was accepted, known, and believed Mozart wrote Ah vous dirai je Maman, aka Twinkle. Then "scholars" began to throw the good old dirt of speculation and conjecture into the soup as they wrote and presented arguments for that coveted DM degree. 

Like for example, we do know where Mozart was buried (no we don't). The grave was marked (no it wasn't). We know how he died (no we don't). Ate bad pork (bad fish, bad mushrooms, bad beef, bad lamb, bad water...). We know who the mystery commission of the Requiem came from (Walsegg, Schroeder, Salieri, Koenig et al...). Scholars put all these questions to rest once and for all. And they contradict each other more than the good old Bible. Each one insisting he's right!  Largely unchecked or uncheckable bibliographies offered as proof. 

My favorite is the doctorologist who actually wrote part of his grocery list on a page of Mozart's original manuscript to the Requiem! What kind of hubris did that require? 

Mark Twain wrote, "A great deal of darkness has been shed on the subject, and it is likely more darkness will be shed on it, until we know nothing at all!" Boy oh boy does that apply to Beethoven and Mozart! 

Beethoven wrote a few famous tunes too. Rule Britainia! God Save the Queen, For He's a Jolly Good Fellow, and My Country 'Tis of Thee... all Beethoven tunes. Did he and Mozart "borrow" from folk tunes of the time? Possibly. Or their melodies became popular tunes because they were catchy, with hooks. Hard to know. Maybe impossible to know. But an army of scholars kicked the legs out of each to make them more human and flawed for the next million years, or three which ever come first. 

One account assigned composition of Twinkle to Leopold Mozart, Wolfgang's father. 

Another problem is back then, a lot of music didn't get written down. Mozart hated writing his music down on paper. Why did he do it? To sell it! To sell to others, the mystery and magic of what he played and how he played it. But he was a great improviser and likely never played a piece the same way twice. In fact, Mozart was also a bad sight reader. Sometimes others took their written music to him for critique, and he was terrified to play it. But the other had a duplicate copy, and when Mozart played, he improvised, and the other made corrections on his copy because Mozart's improv was so much better than his original! 

I did an interpretation of Twinkle many years ago to show the high standard of music performance in comparison with hard subjects, like math, physics, and chemistry. 

What does a 93% sound like? That's an A in any subject. 
Two performances. First about 100%. Second about 93%.





 

Give a listen to a great Beethoven work, Wellington's Victory. In particular, listen for the tunes that became well known and popular "folk" melodies. 

This is great! This guys "gets it!" 


 

Siagiah wrote:

It says "video unavailable"  ??

It plays for me. Just tested it. Here it is again. 

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=samfSDbZnko&list=LLl-2AqdTm939EVcn_zASzEQ&index=5&t=0s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=samfSDbZnko&list=LLl-2AqdTm939EVcn_zASzEQ&index=5&t=0s


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Pikes Peak 14115 wrote:

Siagiah wrote:

It says "video unavailable"  ??

It plays for me. Just tested it. Here it is again. 

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=samfSDbZnko&list=LLl-2AqdTm939EVcn_zASzEQ&index=5&t=0s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=samfSDbZnko&list=LLl-2AqdTm939EVcn_zASzEQ&index=5&t=0s


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I'm sorry, but it STILL says "Video Unavailable" for me.  You may have it saved in your cache, so it plays, but it WON'T play for me.  No clue why ???
 

 I'm not saying it's impossible---just that I sure as hell could never do it. As for the other point...well.after hundreds of  years it is difficult to imagine something that hasn't been done before. I'm not talking about "copying" consciously or even copying at all. I'm thinking pure math within the framework of a large but LIMITED number of possibilities that exist within the western chromatic scale..and a few other limitations whose frame makes music "work"
   There are other musical frameworks but many of them result in music that is far more interesting to read about than it is to listen to.
 

SJW wrote:

The case of "who wrote that?" that most fascinates me is the opening theme of Beethoven's "Eroica" Symphony which happens to be virtually identical to a theme from the overture of Mozart's "Bastien und Bastienne, which was written about 35-40 years earlier, when Mozart was 12 years old.
   The scholarship on this is somewhat a muddle, as I recall, since at the time the Eroica was written
around, let's say 1803-05) Bastien und Bastienne had never been published. My further recollection is that it was believed (at least in the late 1980's) that there was a likelihood that the theme may have belonged to a third composer (unknown) whose material was "borrowed" by the Mozart and Beethoven.
    This brings me to the mystery of musical composition. Over the years I've sat down at the piano and tried to turn out a little piece of music. Inevitably, if it is something that pleases me, on reflection I realize that all I was doing was parroting or playing with melodies or ideas that I've heard in the past, even though that past might be distant. 
  So, I'm astounded at the very concept of musical composition and often wonder if it is possible to create anything truly original. One thing certain, it's impossible for me.
 

If you play piano, even just a little, sit down and improvise. Harmony in your left hand, theme in your right. 
Switch off and hear it in a different register. 
Change keys. 
Change rhythms a little. 
Isolate a motif, and improvise just on the motif.
Make it into a recitative. 
Put words to it. 
Any words. Rhyme or prose. 
Words about daily life. 
"I just brushed my teeth!" 
"I just" is probably on beats 3 and 4. "Brushed" is the downbeat. 
If you put "brushed my teeth" into a 5/4 meter, it's probably 
as original as you can get. 
"I just" could be beats 2 and 3 in a 3/4 measure.
3/4 to 5/4. 
What are the chances some old dead white guy did that?
Rappers can't write. 
You just created a brand new, original composition. 
Did you borrow ideas you heard? Possibly. Who cares? 
Nobody every played it the way you just did, and that makes it yours. 
Maybe you quoted some composer. 
In old times composers quoted each other and predecessors frequently. 
Why did any write their music down?
To sell their technique long distance. 
A composition was a book, bought by somebody else to learn how. 
Write yours down. 
You can use Finale or Sibelius, improvise and they will write it down for you. 
Your human =19.5pxidiosyncrasies away from absolute perfect rhythm is likely to
tie really odd looking pairings together- a 32nd note tied to a half note.
Or you can do what you did in ear training, 
You will have to use your own squillo.
That will make it even more original. 

 

I don't see it that way.  We could go on and on and back and forth , but it would serve no purpose. We appear to disagree. 
   I've tried writing a response to your take on this subject on three occasions. Each time it ended up being too long, too technical/mathematical and far too boring (even for me). Best we leave it at that.

No. No. I meant I tried to write messages but in each instance was dissatisfied with what I wrote and scrapped the messages. It's a complicated subject . I never posted anything until today.
 NYC is the base I use when I'm stateside. I only post when I'm here. When I'm home I have other priorities and when I'm elsewhere on the road I just use my phone.While I can read items, posting comes with more difficulty than I care to bother with.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.